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Interview 1987

newspaper Folha de Sao Paulo

Illustrated book of 02 November 1987.

Psychoanalyst KANT MEETS And

I-CHING
For Gilson Schwartz

Marie-Louise von Franz talks about the possibility of open space for the irrationality of science and about the power of chance.

Nothing is more common after the spins of a slip or even a scolding in front of crazy, you hear someone open parenthesis to say, "Freud explains." But like any other trademark of our times, that neon can both clarify and obfuscate. There is much more between the phallus and the vase that you can imagine our vain psychology.

In 1906, over 31 years, Carl Gustav Jung felt vertigo of science. Warned by two German professors against their persistence in getting next to Freud, defending it, an attitude that would put their "future university" in danger, Jung said: "If what Freud says is true, I'll be with him. I do not care a career to silence the truth and mutilated research. " Unconditional support for science and research, but Freud's defense just in case his theory is true. Jung did not, after all, to deny the truth of the Freudian theory of "neuroses caused by repression or sexual trauma." However, driven by another mind, Jung struggled with the conversion of that truth in dogma. That psychological theories come dogmas is not news. Just count the number of "little churches", each cultivating its "truth" (Freud, kleiniano9s, Lacanian, Jungian, etc...)

Marie-Louise von Franz is a disciple of Jung, but abhors "Jungian school," the Institute, careerism. Prefers to meet, without funds jobbed with a group of scholars willing to truth. At age 72, is the only survivor of the inner circle of work that existed around Jung. She lives in a small house in Kusnacht, a town close to Zurich, Switzerland - where, incidentally, is installed on the Jung Institute, by the lake. The home of Franz von gets squashed this institution that she no longer attends. It is a simple home garden abandoned. In the library, including books on psychology, history, anthropology, stands a huge statue of Buddha Indian green.

Marie-Louise von Franz Jung know in 1934. She was 19 years (he was 59), had a culture philological and philosophical enough to collaborate with the master in translating texts from Greek, Latin and Sanskrit, needed for research on the alchemy that Jung was developing then. But only in 1951 when it published "Aion," the name of Von Franz appears as the author of an interpretation of the visions of the martyr St. Perpetua. Between 1955 collaboration and 1957 reaches the top, with the publication of "Mysterium Coniunctionis" study "the separation and reunion of opposites in alchemy." The third and final volume, written by Von Franz, contains the text, translation and commentary of a psychological treatise on alchemy attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas (Aurora Consurgens). Here the figure of renewed vertigo: fetch worlds founders of modern rationalism lanes of the unconscious. One aspect of Jung's thought specially extended by the work of Von Franz is the study of the symbolism of numbers. In (Number and Time) (1970) translates this symbolism is a link between the psychology of the unconscious and modern physics. This link involves the concept of "synchronicity." It is as if the events of history were brought together in time objective and transcendental identity, however, would prove to be significant at times casually. It is a significant chance, those coincidences, dreams, premunições that put us in touch with reality dictates a "hidden". This accident that explains and guides how the game of "I Ching" and can only be grasped when we cross the border secure causal explanation. Von Franz has pioneered this territory multidimensional, with the collaboration of physicists, biologists and historians. The concept of "Synchronicity" as others connected with Jung's work seems steeped in irrationality. Certainly not be reduced to explanatory models traditionally used in modern science, because it requires both desire for knowledge and awareness of the limits of rationality. This trail ambivalent, which seeks to combine opposites irreducible (rational-irrational, male-female, quantity-quality, raw spirit) sets a very current topic. Vide (empty controversies that, including Brazil, dominate the cultural scene. Merquior accuses the machismo of irrationalism, Rouanet loses patience with the postmodern Chauí exorcises skills. The winner potatoes. But this fight no winners or losers, it is the mirror, the projection of participation and control of each of the limited partners in the process of democratization in Brazil. The debate over rationality irrationality x, does not arise by chance now. Or perhaps, is one of those significant hazards. Intellectuals from different ideological inspirations dispute the definition of the language of transition, the terms of shaping the future of this society. And nothing more ancient human societies, this finding is that rational link between the present and future. The work of Jung and von Franz reflection on our (time) can help new paths or at least understand why the crossroads of the maze are suddenly blocked.

Sheet What transformations of the contemporary concept of time and how it relates to the concept of causality?

Marie-Louise A reflection from the philosophy of Kant explains that the causality is not an objective phenomenon, but one of the ways we see things, "because of that, what happens" in fact, two things happen and we make the connection. Causality is a category of our mind or our thinking. Same behavioral pattern of animals is tuned "if such a thing happens, I behave this way." It is a concept with roots therefore, quite deep, but not all. It is known in quantum mechanics that not everything is explained causally. There are phenomena only statistically proven, and there are gaps so to speak where the causality does not work. The new concept of "synchronicity" created by Jung, not throw out the causality, but fills the void or gap. Instead of using the term "noncausal," Jung chose a positive expression, "synchronicity." There is something else manifesting.

Sheet The notion of "synchronicity", however, associate the processes of action as in "I Ching".

Marie-Louise
Every new concept has, in fact, historical roots. The historical roots of "Synchronicity" are magical. Apart from causation, humankind has always dealt with magic, primitive people are rainmakers and Shamans. But this is the primitive mentality. The notion of "synchronicity" waiver that reference to magic, replacing it with a concept much more disciplined. It is a concept that accounts for a temporary manifestation of all significant and timely.

Sheet What is a good example of real and current "synchronicity"?

Marie-Louise Using your language of economists, think about the people who speculate in financial markets. She has a magic behavior, wear amulets, believe in good days as opposed to dark days. Speculation is filled with magical thinking. In other words, the empirical reality of the economy shows that speculation is at stake in an irrational factor that has a psychological aspect.

Sheet The notion of "synchronicity" could be applied to other disciplines in the so-called humanities?

Marie-Louise This is a really basic concept. Could be used, for example, a review of history. I wrote an article about the goddess Nikér, victory. Military victory is not just a rational matter (more troops, more weapons). The Germans lost the battle of the Marne in World War I by chance: a certain order was not followed.

Sheet The other contemporary philosophical trends that seek to reconstruct the notion of rationality without falling into determinism. Habermas, for example, insists on dialogue and consensus as a way of overcoming the strictly technical rationality. How to relate this kind of attempt to Jung's vision?

Marie-Louise Jung The difference is that it comes with the concept of the unconscious. Others call it "irrational" rationalism and then with reference to dialogue, feelings and so on. Jung said that there are factors much more profound, connected to the creative power of the unconscious. This is new and provoked many reactions, because people are afraid. When you speak in dialogue, manipulation is still possible. Moreover there is the hope of improving this manipulation, "and sit together to make psychodrama can overcome the difficulties." But Jung is necessary to surrender, the "difficulty" will never be surpassed. The "Synchronicity" can not be manipulated. Thus, Jung promotes a complete defeat of rationality. Yet there is a possibility handling in the Jungian concept. If you have a positive attitude to the unconscious, it becomes far more benevolent. Otherwise we could handle it at all there would be no psychotherapy. From an conscious attitude in front of the unconscious, the "synchronicity" might work positively for the patient, he is cured. I'd say you can not handle, but make contact with the unconscious more friendly.

Sheet A computerized society would make this more difficult the unconscious conscious?

Marie-Louise There is an exaggeration of rationality that can produce exactly the opposite. Go far toward one extreme generates the opposite extreme is the concept of enantriodromia (inversion of a psychic state, GS). Hence we see the irrationality become increasingly present. People like Comeine, Kadaf are totally irrational. Among the young pop music, for example, places an emphasis on complete irrationality. We run, therefore the risk of falling suddenly into irrationality, a magical thinking and primitive, chaotic, rather than opt for the middle ground and use the computer systems where appropriate, avoiding its use where they are needed.

Sheet What are the chances of real humanity reach that middle ground?

For Marie-Louise Jung, reach that middle ground is a reasonable reflection of the sign of culture, moving in the opposite direction is primitivism and barbarism. We do not know if you can overcome the savagery.

Sheet in human history there would be a cyclical pattern of oscillations between rational and irrational, or if you can believe in an evolutionary process?

Marie-Louise I do not know, my mind is open to these two possibilities. By temperament I am inclined to believe in a cultural evolution that takes place very slowly over thousands of years, with cycles of creation and destruction in the meantime. But if we consider 10 or 20 thousand years happily became a little more grown. There

Sheet in feminism a sign that the culture changing?

Marie-Louise This is a part of that conversion to the irrational. Women have a better relationship with the irrational than men, while not being as masculine. A feminine woman has a natural inclination to the irrational, then your feelings or intuitions. For a woman, saying "you can not explain, but I feel that I want to do it" is not crazy. For a man that's crazy, he says, "look honey reflect."

Sheet As feminism fits into this vision, Now that women in positions of power?

Marie-Louise assume male roles is not necessarily a good thing. I'm against feminism because I am against the masculinization of women. I am a different kind of feminism, which seeks to give more value to "feminism." Women need to resist the inferiority complex that leads many to imitate men. Rather, I fear for the men of the future. Poor men ...

Sheet As stated before freedom of irrationality and violence?

Marie-Louise Violence is again part of that enantiodromia. We are greatly limited by the rationality and individuals are not free. I spend summers in the park where I do not see a cop. Then comes a balance between violence and decency, but in cities you can not run down the street when they want, all spontaneity is cut, you have to look at the red light, where parking is permitted and not riding on this or that place. Even taxis are computer you can not fool anyone. You live in an organized way until tomorrow night. The reaction is to take a knife and do something crazy.

Sheet This would be appearing among children and young people?

Marie-Louise Children just do what adults want to do unconsciously. If children are brutalized, that means their parents are failing to cope with their own shadow of brutality. Adults accumulate a shadow of brutality and do not want to see it. The manipulation of the children had created a generation just neurotic and criminal.

Sheet Religion would be a valid way to live with the irrational?

Marie-Louise Religion can mean two opposite things. May be the act of going to church, belong to a sect and believe certain things and behaviors. That we do not necessarily need. At least the existing religions are very poor. But one can understand religion otherwise experience as a bright one aspect of the unconscious. We need this much, watching the irrational forces of nature within us and the outside world. We really need that religion is actually all we need. Becoming aware of what goes on behind the scenes. It's what we do in Jungian psychotherapy: see the dreams and teach the patient to observe his dreams and adapt to what their irrational wish him backstage.

Sheet How the Carl Jung Institute in Kusnach here?

Marie-Louise The Office site is almost anti-Jung, completely sterile. The best have retired. The wrong people assume leadership positions, only seeking money and power. Where power dominates, there is degeneration and sterility. But it does not matter: a small group organized, disorganized and without cash, which works very well.

central Sheet What the controversy between Freud and Jung?

Marie-Louise Freud saw the unconscious as something to be removed and handled. Jung saw the unconscious as something powerful and creative that can not be manipulated. Jung considers the irrational as irrational, rather than reason it out quickly, calling it "sexuality."

Note: The meeting with Marie-Louise von Franz was facilitated by the intermediate Mathews Ajzeuberg, Mosoko Leniza Oki and Castelo Branco. The trip to Switzerland was courtesy of Swissair.